The Mental Load: What It Really Is & How to Manage It (with Nicki Cohen)

In this episode, Charlie sits down with therapist and mom of three, Nicki Cohen, to have an honest conversation about the mental load. Together they unpack what the mental load actually is (hint: it's not the to-do list), why moms carry it so silently, and practical ways to start letting go without the guilt spiral. From the glass vs rubber ball analogy to the 30% good enough parent rule, this one is full of permission slips.

**What You'll Learn:**

- What the mental load really means (it's not the doing, it's the constant thinking)

- How to figure out which balls you can drop and which ones you can't

- Why your kids and partner are probably more capable than you give them credit for

- The 30% good enough parent rule that will make you exhale

- How to put mom guilt on trial

- Why struggling alone isn't a badge of honour

- Small ways to find time for yourself (even with little ones)

**Resources Mentioned:**

- Donald Winnicott's 30% Good Enough Parent research

- Back to Me course (includes the "Mom Guilt on Trial" framework and Time Audit

**Connect with Nicki Cohen:**

Nicki is a therapist offering counselling for teenagers and adults, as well as sessions for parents to help them better communicate with their teens. She also provides consultancy to charities and organisations on anything mental health related.

 Website: www.nickicohencounselling.co.uk

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A new episode is released every Sunday!

Transcript

Chatwithcharlie 0:25

Hello, lovely, and welcome back to Chat with Charlie on Mum Matters. I am so excited to share with you today that we've got a guest that I have been wanting on this podcast for such a long time, and we've been trying to make it work. But today, we have finally made it work. We have Nikki Cohen. Nikki Cohen is a therapist, and I'm not gonna say any more. I want her to herself. Hi, Nikki, and welcome to Chat with Charlie on Mum Matters.

Nicki 0:54

I'm so happy to be here. I've obviously been following everything you've been doing for so long, and I've been chomping at the bit to get on this podcast with you and have a good conversation 'cause I think what you're doing is just brilliant and so necessary and so important to just help all the moms out there. So yeah, really excited to be here.

Chatwithcharlie 1:13

What do you do? What's your actual profession? Could you just share a bit about yourself,

Nicki 1:18

Sure

Chatwithcharlie 1:19

and then we can go on to what we're gonna be talking about

Nicki 1:23

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Nikki, as you said. I am first and foremost a mom of three teenage boys and another boy as well if you include my husband in that. I am by kind of profession, I guess, I'm a therapist. I work with teenagers and adults and more recently doing lots of parent work as well. I am the former mental health lead in a secondary school, so I spent a long time building up a department there and working with hundreds and hundreds of teenagers within the mainstream school setting. And yeah, I'm just really passionate about helping, well, I guess everyone really, teenagers and adults kind of navigate what can be, particularly the teenagers, can be a very treacherous time if we don't handle them well. So that's, that's my main area of you know, of what I love to do.

Chatwithcharlie 2:15

expertise. I'm just heading to those teenage years myself

Nicki 2:19

Yep

Chatwithcharlie 2:19

I'm about to find out. But today we're gonna be talking about something that I think every mom carries at some point, which is the mental load. And I really, I talk about the mental load a lot within my content and on my podcast, but I really would love to talk about it from a professional perspective. Really dive in from your p- actual perspective. So the mental load is something that hold very silently sometimes and a lot of people may not know that we're carrying so much, and I think the person listening can relate at some point in their motherhood journey. So firstly what is the mental load? L-

Nicki 3:04

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 3:04

what does it

Nicki 3:05

I, I think the mental load has become one of these terms now which is just sort of thrown around. You know, "Oh yeah, moms and the mental load." But I think it's really important that we understand what we're talking about. It's not just like, "Oh, we're, we're just overwhelmed as moms because there's a lot going on." The mental load is not actually what we have to do. I almost think sometimes that that's the easy bit. We can plan for that, right? We need to get them here, get them there, m- make this food, make that food, do this, do that. It's actually... The mental load to me is about the constant need to be switched on all the time. The thinking, the planning, the remembering, the, the kind of constant list that we have in our head that we just can't ever switch off from. You know, we're holding everyone's needs. We're thinking about everyone's emotions, everyone's deadlines, timetables. You know, does everyone have their PE kits ready? Has everybody thought about

Chatwithcharlie 4:02

Yeah,

Nicki 4:07

to do, messages to reply to, forms to fill out you know, play dates to arrange. A- and, and actually, I think even with the best husbands in the world, that stuff tends to fall to the moms. Through no fault of the dads. This is-- I don't want this to become like a dad-bashing session. But becau- you know, and in some cases, maybe we'll get onto it, I think we can be our own worst enemies with that.

Chatwithcharlie 4:31

Yeah.

Nicki 4:31

But it's really, it's the, it's the stuff that we're holding up here all the time, that even when we go to bed, we, we can't get away from

Chatwithcharlie 4:40

Yeah. Yeah that's it. I think, like you said, you can have the most supportive partner, husband in the world. It's our inability to delegate, to hand things over to someone else, to to switch off, like you said. Because I've realized very recently actually, that my kids are a lot more capable what I gave them credit for.

Nicki 5:07

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 5:07

And,

Nicki 5:08

the way, I think our husbands are probably more capable than we give them credit for as well

Chatwithcharlie 5:12

as well. Yeah, as well. And I... Do you know, I... it was the winter holidays I sat my family down, and I was like, "Everything's just getting too much just for me." Like you said, the, the PE kits and the, all the things that you have to do, the snack pots out of

Nicki 5:28

Mmhmm

Chatwithcharlie 5:28

the school bags. I've got five kids, four kids in school. So to take four kids' snack pots, lunch bags, empty it out of their bags every single day is time-consuming for me. Whereas, if they are to do it individually themselves, which is not a hard task for kids to do,

Nicki 5:46

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 5:47

to empty the contents into the bin it saves me so much time And we had a conversation winter holidays to discuss what my kids and my husband could help house with to take the load off of me And I think so many moms don't do that They just think Oh it's much easier if I do it

Nicki 6:09

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 6:10

if

Nicki 6:10

And that's kind of what I meant when I said we're our own worst enemies. You know, how many times have we heard friends, colleagues say, "Well, you know, it's just easier to do it myself." And, and then, but then that's a choice we're making that then, then that load is gonna be even bigger. You know? But I was sort of smiling when you said about the snack pots, because I think you're so right, and I think all of our kids are much more capable. But the truth is, you're still gonna have to be the one that thinks about, do we have everything in the cupboard, in the fridge? You know, you're still gonna have to be... It's that thinking one step ahead all the time. But that is not to say that, you know, if people can take away some of the physical load and actually wash the pots up, take them out, do those things, at least that makes the mental load a little bit more bearable, I think.

Chatwithcharlie 6:57

Yeah W so from your experience and dealing with overwhelmed moms overwhelmed people but moms in particular really what advice do you give to to help moms let that go To give themselves permission

Nicki 7:14

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 7:15

To let it go

Nicki 7:15

that is, that's actually what you've just hit the nail on the head. That is the first step. You have got to give yourself permission to say, you know, we're not getting a medal for this. There is no medal for doing it all on your own and struggling through and kind of going, "Yes, I've done it all, but I'm ab- absolutely burnt out and on the floor, and not able to actually be the parent I wanna be and my kids need to be." So I would say absolutely giving yourself permission to let some of that go, doing exactly what you've done. Sit down with the family, figure out what are... Even if they're little things, but little things add up, right? Five kids or even four kids doing their own snack pot, that's probably saved you 20 minutes of a day. So

Chatwithcharlie 8:01

Literally

Nicki 8:02

out the small things. And also I think it's kind of about, you know, be brave. Test it out. Ask your husband to be in charge of X, Y, or Z, and, and just see how it goes. You know, kind of small steps to make... I think the small, small things we do can make a big difference, so putting your trust there and saying, "Okay, you're gonna do this, and you kids are gonna do this," and sort of trusting that process to see how can I get better at delegating? How can I relinquish some of that control? And, and I think in this case, you know, the control is, is, it comes from a really good place. It's, it's from wanting everyone to have everything they need and, you know. But actually sometimes giving a bit of control back over to them is not the worst thing in the world.

Chatwithcharlie 8:49

I think the giving the control back is the hard part as well because we can physically give someone a task but you've gotta let go that it's not done to your standard maybe or it's not perfect when I have told my kids to put their laundry away which is something

Nicki 9:04

Mmhmm

Chatwithcharlie 9:04

that we started doing my fiveyearold does not know how to

Nicki 9:09

fit all with them nicely

Chatwithcharlie 9:10

of his drawer yeah but it's not folded perfectly and I have had to let go because the perfection will come over time The idea is that you're taking that mental load completely off your head

Nicki 9:24

Yes.

Chatwithcharlie 9:25

that they can do a task your kids your husband from start to finish and that's the only point that the mental load is taken off of you And also I think when we were talking once before you were telling me about w you were talking about an analogy I can't remember maybe you can describe it better about things that are things you can let go You were talking about balls that you throw in the

Nicki 9:48

Yeah, absolutely. S- so

Chatwithcharlie 9:51

share that with us Because it was really interesting

Nicki 9:53

Absolutely. It's one of my favorite analogies. I use it day in, day out with clients. So we're talking about, you know, as moms, we have a million balls in the air all the time, but we have to figure out which of those balls we can drop. So we're thinking about which of those balls are rubber and which of them are glass, right? So the, the glass balls are the ones that obviously if they do drop, that's gonna cause a mess. That's gonna smash into a million pieces, and there's gonna be debris everywhere, and that's what we are not obviously looking for. And the rubber balls are the ones that if they drop, they're gonna bounce, and that's okay because they'll bounce and they'll roll away and you can pick them up a bit later on. So what we have to do is figure out, and it's kind of one of the, I guess, early stages with the mental load, is figure out of all of these different balls that we're juggling, which are glass and which are rubber. And we have to be okay with dropping some of the balls because we are all human and we are going to drop the balls. And you know, you mentioned just a minute ago about perfection coming later. I would even go as far as to say like we're, we're not looking for perfection. We're just looking for it to be okay, to get through the day, to get through the week with, you know, even whether it's one child or multiple children, you know, there's an e- element of survival mode in this, and we've got to be able to manage all of the different things on our plate, and we have to do that by figuring out. And the truth is really in my experience, the only balls that can't bounce really are, are the family. Like they can't bounce, right? And I'm not talking about whether his PE kit is ready. I'm talking about, you know, are they okay? Like are their emotions okay? What do they need from you? That is crucial, right? Your family, your friends, the people around you, your village. That is absolutely crucial. We, we do not wanna let those balls drop. The truth is, if they do turn up to school without a snack pot, without a PE top, they've forgotten a book, you know, is that annoying? Yeah, it's annoying, and they might get told off, but actually that is a rubber ball. It's gonna bounce. They're not n- no terrible tragedy is gonna come from that. So we just need to get better at figuring out what, you know, when they are all up in the air and we can't catch them all, knowing sort of a bit more instinctively which ones can we just leave till tomorrow, till next week, till halftime when we can regroup a bit.

Chatwithcharlie 12:25

I think it is a lot of letting go which

Nicki 12:29

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 12:29

I know myself letting go of certain things is really hard and like you say I have been able to let go of things from experience So if you're a mom listening now and you're at the beginning of motherhood and you're thinking I can't do that I

Nicki 12:45

Mmhmm

Chatwithcharlie 12:45

I can't let go

Nicki 12:46

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 12:47

all these things I have to be perfect I have to be present all the time The minute I think that you decide to let go a bit and you said figure out sit down and figure out which balls are made of glass and which balls are made of rubber

Nicki 13:06

Yeah?

Chatwithcharlie 13:07

you will feel so much lighter in yourself My kids were told this week because of the England match that they could go into school wearing red and white the night before and I had to try and find red and white clothes for four kids the night before which I don't have red and white clothes for four kids My daughter went in a pink top and a denim skirt and I was like It's okay

Nicki 13:31

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 13:31

know

Nicki 13:32

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 13:32

years ago I would've been in uproar trying to think can I get a delivery

Nicki 13:37

Amazon, Amazon

Chatwithcharlie 13:38

Can

Nicki 13:38

quick

Chatwithcharlie 13:39

Yeah How quick can you get here But like you said the world is not gonna end

Nicki 13:45

No

Chatwithcharlie 13:46

not wearing the right color clothes that day it life goes on And giving yourself that permission which will then bring us on in a minute to something that you have to as well in order to give yourself permission which is the mom

Nicki 14:03

Oh, yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 14:04

which we'll get to in a

Nicki 14:05

Oh, the mom guilt is so real. By the way, I think, you know, what, what you said about for those at the beginning of motherhood, just trying to imagine a time where they can let go of some of those, that, that need for perfection. I think it is, it's a real work in progress. You know, my oldest is nearly 19 and it is still a work in progress. You know? So I think it's just kind of that it doesn't come quickly. It comes with experience. It comes over time. It comes each time you have kind of messed it up, and I say that in inverted commas, and then realized, "Oh, okay. You know, it, it was okay in the end. I, I panicked, but it was okay." It's almost that you need, it needs to happen a few times for your brain to sort of say, "Actually, it, it's all right. The threat of danger is not so real. It's actually okay." Like you said, you know, if they wear a pink top instead of a red top, and you will feel, "Oh my goodness," like, "What am I doing? I'm a terrible parent. It's not red." And actually, you know, at the end of the day, it, it's absolutely fine. They don't care and n- nor does anyone else. But th- those situations have to happen for you to be able to let go of it, I think, in a lot of cases

Chatwithcharlie 15:20

Because I think when you first have children you compare yourself so much to society of what the best of a mom looks like which actually quite frankly is not real

Nicki 15:32

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 15:33

The best version is who you are already who you are as yourself your individual self as a mom to your child Nobody knows your child like you know your

Nicki 15:44

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 15:45

compare yourself or your child to

Nicki 15:47

Hello?

Chatwithcharlie 15:47

else And I think we we have this world that we live in where we're trying to keep up with unrealistic expectations that's where w we're so hard on ourselves People will scroll through Instagram and TikTok and see things that are not realistic And like we have discussed before Nikki social media is both good and

Nicki 16:12

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 16:12

There's good parts and bad parts to it it's about choosing what's good for you for your mental load for your mental health If is not making you feel good about your motherhood journey your mental load unfollow that account It's not good for you right now Even if you think the tips that account is sharing with you could be good for you or something you should be doing you've got to enjoy and feel good about what you're consuming Would you agree

Nicki 16:44

I, I really agree. And I think what's crucial as well is that very often when we are scrolling, we are already tired, overwhelmed. It might be the end of a very, very long day. So we're already kind of, you know, a bit of self-doubt is creeping in. "Oh," you know, "was I the best version of myself today? Did I parent as well as I wanted to today?" And then all we're seeing is, you know, these perfect, smiling, happy families, these beautiful houses, these well-behaved children, you know, parents who look like they are just absolutely nailing it all the time. And all that does is, of course, just feed our self-doubt and our negative, you know, thought processes around our parenting. Because what we're not seeing, you know, and something we've not really touched on is, we're not seeing the hiding in the toilets. We're not seeing people crying in the shower or, or indeed spending 20 minutes longer in the shower than they need to because they just need a break, We're not seeing kids shouting, doors slamming. it's rare to come across an account that is very real in that sense. So what we're comparing ourselves to, as you say, is just not real because people really... And I'm, I'm guilty of that myself. I don't post pictures of the five of us, you know, screaming and shouting. I post the nice pictures, right? Who wants to see that? Right, you know. But, but we have to remember that, that these kind of happy times and perfect moments that we see just make that overwhelm even bigger. And as you say, what is super important, and I've really found myself doing this over the past few years, is really curating my feed, following the positive. Sure, you know, there's some celebrities or whatever, but you've got to take that with a pinch of salt because, you know, they're not showing the nannies and all the, the you know, the housemaids and everything that they have under- behind the scenes that is enabling them to do all of that. But I think, you know, we've just got to get better. You know, there are so many amazing, positive social media, you know, whether you're on TikTok, Instagram, there are some really brilliant accounts to follow, including your own, obviously. where people are real and they're sharing the real things, but they're giving helpful, sustainable advice that's not just, completely unrealistic and not manageable. I think the thing is we want it to be acknowledged that being a parent is really hard, and we don't know what we're doing. We're making it up as we go along, And I always thought,

Chatwithcharlie 19:08

Yeah

Nicki 19:08

I don't know if you felt the same, you know, after I had my first son. When my second son came along, I thought, "Oh, well, I know what I'm doing now because I've done it before." Oh, little did I know, you know? Little did I know, because he's a completely different child. So it really doesn't, it doesn't seem to... But it's not logic. Look, of course there are some things that you are better at second time round, third time round for you, fourth and fifth time round. But, you know, we're, we're still, we're learning all the time, and actually that comparison to everyone else, you've gotta do it your way. you are the parent, they are your children. There is not right or wrong as far as do you do it better than me or do I do it better than you. The, the... It's circumstantial. It's where you live. It's your environment. It's your family. But definitely that social media, if it's not serving you, if you are scrolling and coming off of that scroll feeling worse than you did before, then you need to take a good look at it because it's not helping you

Chatwithcharlie 20:04

Absolutely And that's exactly what my content my podcasts are all about

Nicki 20:08

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 20:09

the courses that I have as well is about showing motherhood for what it actually is

Nicki 20:15

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 20:16

Yes there are some amazing parts of being a mom and the mental load can be amazing at times because it's filled with things that you want to do that you enjoy with your family that you enjoy with your kids But to show it for what it really is that it's not always great

Nicki 20:32

No

Chatwithcharlie 20:33

and it's okay That's very normal

Nicki 20:36

Yeah. No, no, yeah, it, it is. It's so normal. And actually, something I came across a few years ago, I was studying a course in trauma, trauma-informed education, and one of the things they talked about was this rule. It's something that a guy- you can, you can have a, a Google of him if you'd like, any of the people listening. His name's Donald Winnicott. And one of the things he talks about is this 30% good enough parent rule, which honestly, in, in my nearly 19 years of parenting, it was one of the biggest things that made my entire body go, "Oh, okay." And I wish, I wish someone had told me that 19 years ago. But it's really just about the fact that caregivers only actually need to get it right or be in sync with their kid 30% of the time for your kid to thrive. Now, that obviously doesn't mean that 70% of the time we can just ignore them and leave them to it. But that actually fundamentally for their brain, scientifically, that he, he's emphasizing that we don't need perfection. You know, when we're looking to get that secure attachment with our kids, we want them to be secure individuals. We want them to have a good attachment to us, but equally be able to separate from us when, you know, when need be. And the g- and that was such good news to me that you don't have to get it right 100% of the time, because that's not real. We are all human. We all have our own baggage that we bring into motherhood. We all have daily challenges. You know, some parents have their own neurodivergent challenges or financial challenges, emotional challenges, whatever that might be. But actually for me, knowing that as long as you're getting it right 30% of the time, your kids still can absolutely go on and have a perfectly brilliant, you know, happy and kind of secure life. That was really, really important for me because like we said, that mom guilt is just so real. You know, how many of us have gone to bed at night feeling not good enough, feeling like we've gotta do better. We're just dropping all these balls all the time. So I felt like that

Chatwithcharlie 22:40

Yeah

Nicki 22:40

rule for me was just such good news. I was like, "Okay, that's, that's good to know."

Chatwithcharlie 22:44

it definitely made me have a huge sigh of relief because it's you we have 100 in our heads

Nicki 22:52

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 22:52

of us I think we feel like if I'm not being my best self 100 of the time then I am doing a terrible job as a mom So

Nicki 23:00

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 23:01

is that's it's a real relief And like you said it's not like the other 70 you're sitting with your

Nicki 23:08

Abandoning them

Chatwithcharlie 23:08

anything you're just you are you're just not the top of your game maybe and that's perfectly okay

Nicki 23:15

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 23:15

brings us to the mom guilt

Nicki 23:18

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 23:18

It's something that I talk about a lot in in my content and in my episodes because it's it gets you on such a high emotional level that you're not really prepared for You've never felt that kind of guilt It's not the same kind of guilt as standard guilt Mom

Nicki 23:38

Mmhmm

Chatwithcharlie 23:39

just a whole different

Nicki 23:40

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 23:41

level and it it hurts It really hurts I went I took my fiveyearold to a party last weekend or the weekend before and got him ready and I had literally kids kids at different parties I was all over the place It was a crazy Sunday And I'd got him there I was so proud of myself He was dressed he was there he was on time I walk into the garden and all the other kids are in their swimming clothes

Nicki 24:07

No.

Chatwithcharlie 24:07

a splash

Nicki 24:08

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 24:09

was in his clothes My heart sank and

Nicki 24:13

Yeah, we've all had

Chatwithcharlie 24:14

like

Nicki 24:15

moments

Chatwithcharlie 24:16

I it was a horrible feeling and

Nicki 24:18

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 24:18

had tried my best to get him there on time to have him in the right clothes I'd got the presents wrapped the pre all the things that behind the scenes the mental load that we go through to do to get them to these parties on time and I'd forgotten that one thing and I just felt so guilty And I just said to him It's okay Just get your clothes wet and

Nicki 24:38

Yeah no tail with them

Chatwithcharlie 24:38

get home Don't worry about it I left feeling so rubbish And I'm so grateful because with my experience I in Back to Me the course that I have a thing where I put mom guilt on trial

Nicki 24:52

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 24:52

I really have to think about it this because of something that I

Nicki 24:58

Exactly

Chatwithcharlie 24:59

Yes it was because I want my son to go to the party and in the right clothes but does it mean that he's not gonna have a good time at the party No it doesn't He still could have a blast He came out soaking wet He had a great time and he

Nicki 25:12

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 25:13

clothes when he got home

Nicki 25:14

Yeah. And that's kind of like what we were saying earlier, that actually, look, we don't want these things to happen because we never feel good about them at the time, but actually sometimes they sort of need to happen, and then you go, you know what? Did you feel a bit rubbish about that? Sure. But actually, you know, the way that you handled it was perfect, I think. It's like, you know what? We're here. You're gonna do it anyway. I think there may be other moms who would've panicked, ran home, missed half the party because they had to go and dig out the swim stuff and, yeah. And actually, I would, I would very, very much imagine that, you know, after five seconds of him kind of going, "Oh, everyone else is in swimming shorts. Okay, I'm going in in my clothes," and that's it. He doesn't care. He's having the best time just splashing around with all his pals, right? And actually, l- I think that, you know, mom guilt is, is like you say, it's a whole other level because mom love is a whole other level. You know, until you become a mom, you have never ever loved anything in the way that you love your kids, right? And you will never will. And I'm sorry to all the husbands out there, but that is just the way it is, you know, as far as my experience goes. You know, and so that love that you have for them means that you just want everything to be right and perfect for them all the time because you love them so much and it's, you know, it's directly in, you know, bec- so therefore the guilt you feel is directly correlated to the love that you feel. But actually, what I think is interesting as well is, I've worked with lots of adults over the past few years who might be struggling in their relationships, and they talk about, you know, how guilty they feel if they argue in front of the kids or if the kids overhear something. And actually, what I talk to them a lot about is kind of rupture and repair. So, showing kids, whether that's because you forgot the swimming stuff or whether that's because you argued with your partner in front of the children, what we're actually modeling to them, which is super healthy, is that we are not perfect, and we get things wrong, and therefore it's okay for them to get things wrong too. Because they are going to make mistakes as they grow up, big and small, right? And, and believe me, I am there in the world of three teenage boys, right? And I know it's not gonna get any easier over the next few years either. They are gonna make mistakes, and it has to b- they have to know that that's okay, and they have to know that they can come to you when they do. So actually, you showing them that human side of, "Oh," you know, "just forgot the swimming stuff," or whatever it is, and then just making it okay is, is, A, going to help your mom guilt, because you have to let go of it. In that moment, you just have to let go of it. You can either just kick off and everyone's screaming and crying, and then you go home and miss the party, or you just- Get on with it. But you're also, what, what we are modeling to them is really, really important

Chatwithcharlie 28:14

I think yeah I've I'm very conscious with my children that they understand that mommy makes mistakes

Nicki 28:22

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 28:23

and or if they say that they didn't enjoy maths at school or if I never push my kids and I tell them that You're not gonna enjoy everything in life Everything's not gonna be perfect all the time

Nicki 28:36

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 28:36

You will forget things you might come across something in life that someone else is better at than you

Nicki 28:41

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 28:41

okay that's about not passing on your mom guilt or your perfection your children that like you said it's okay to make mistakes It's super super healthy for your kids

Nicki 28:55

yeah brilliant

Chatwithcharlie 28:56

And they like you said they will open up to you more if they understand that they're allowed to There's room for mistakes and they see that you do that

Nicki 29:03

And one of my really big things is about, you know, teaching kids to own their mistakes. I see secondary school and up, so I'm seeing kind of 11 plus kids and, you know, there is so much, and I include my own kids in this. It's always, you know, "Well, I got in trouble at school and this teacher shouted at me, and it wasn't even me." You know, and you look and it, and it's amazing because it's it was, it was never you. And I use my own kids as that example. You know, I'm like, "Well, there's been, you know, X amount of maybe negative behavior points this year, but it's astonishing that not one of them was you. Like, how does this happen?" You know, and I say to them, "I would be so much happier if you came home and said..." And I, and I... 'cause obviously we can in secondary school we can see it all on the app, right? Yeah, in trouble for talking, in trouble for whatever, you know. And I say, and I say to them, "Don't come home and tell me it wasn't you," right? Don't... I'm not interested. It- maybe it was you, maybe it wasn't. My mum used to always say to me when I was younger, not long after I'd started driving or maybe a few years after, and I remember I got a speeding ticket and she said to me, "Well, think of all the times that you've been speeding and you haven't got a ticket." You know, it, it all balances out. And I say to them, "Just own it. You know, maybe you did talk first or maybe someone else spoke to you and then you, you spoke, but you did speak, so just own it. It's okay when... I, I don't care. I would rather you came home and said, 'Got in trouble today because I don't know why, I just could not stop talking in English.'" You know, fine. And they're not gonna get in trouble. Peop- kids talk. I'm not one of these kind of, you know, "Oh no, we have to pun-" Let you talk. It's okay. It's not a big crime,

Chatwithcharlie 30:43

Yeah

Nicki 30:43

know? A- and, and actually at the moment my son is away on a, on a trip for a few weeks, and the other morning he sent me a message and he said, this one, he's 16, and he said LOL my room all woke up an hour and a half late this morning." So he thought that was really funny. I mean, there's 40 of them in the group, so I thought, "Oh, I bet that was a bit annoying for the leaders because they're all waiting around for you." Anyway, later on that afternoon he sends me a message, he says "We, we," his room, "We are fuming. We're not allowed to go kayaking this afternoon because we all woke up late." And, and there was a kind of gut reaction from me of, "Oh my goodness, that's not fair." And then I thought, "Oh well, that's what happens when you wake up an hour and a half late." You know? And I said to him...

Chatwithcharlie 31:28

owning that

Nicki 31:29

And he said to me, "Please will you email the office of the group that organize it and tell them it's not fair?" And oh, how I laughed. I said, "Absolutely not. Absolutely not." I said, "You are in a group of 40. There are five of you. You are 16 years old, and for whatever reason, not one of you set an alarm, or maybe you all did and turned them off. But you have-- there are consequences to your behavior. I'm not getting you out of this. You have to..." You know? And I said to him also, "Think about the way you respond to your leaders while they're giving you this punishment, because if you kick off even more..." Anyway, funnily enough, later on, he sent me a message and said that one of the other leaders had said to these five boys, "Because you took your punishments like men," which I don't love the phrasing of, but he said, "Because you took your punishments like men, we're gonna take you to a kind of a little lake bit further up while they all do the kayaking." So I was really pleased with that, because I didn't fight the battle for him. I didn't scream and shout and complain. I just said, "You have got to be responsible. You have messed up. You are now getting a consequence." But actually, because they did own it, and they didn't kick off too much, I don't think, they actually ended up having a little swim in a lake rather than sitting on a coach while everybody else was kayaking. And I, I was like, "Good. Own it. Own it." That's what I wanna teach my kids.

Chatwithcharlie 32:52

something

Nicki 32:52

messed up.

Chatwithcharlie 32:53

that's so

Nicki 32:54

Own it

Chatwithcharlie 32:54

that is only something you can teach That's something that you would've him from a young age

Nicki 33:00

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 33:01

way that you've parented all the way through and that's teaching him that we all make mistakes

Nicki 33:07

we have to be accountable. No,

Chatwithcharlie 33:09

be there to bail

Nicki 33:09

no.

Chatwithcharlie 33:10

all the time

Nicki 33:11

teenage, teenage years are, are really interesting in that way, the, the later teenage years, because there is-- I find that real, you know, he's not an adult yet, he's still two years away, but he equally isn't a little kid. He's also six foot four, which doesn't help.

Chatwithcharlie 33:26

Wow Wow

Nicki 33:27

it's that kind of real in-between like, of course, I'm still parenting you, of course, I will do anything for you, but in a couple of years' time, you are gonna be an adult. And so these lessons now of how you respond to things and what you do in situations that you don't like or what you do when you've messed up, is super important to me that they get that right, that they are accountable, that they are responsible. You know, I want them to go on and get good jobs and, you know, please God, have nice families and whatever. And, and a big part of that is how you respond in different situations. So going back to us as mums, we've got to model that to them. We've got to teach them that it's okay to make mistakes, and it's what you do with those mistakes that is gonna define you

Chatwithcharlie 34:14

But also that we can't feel that mom guilt when you're trying to teach your child a lesson however old they

Nicki 34:22

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 34:23

it's your toddler that just tipped their potty on their head like whatever it is I'm at that stage as

Nicki 34:29

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 34:30

whatever it is and you have to not have the mom guilt Cause there's so many times that I have shouted at my kids for doing something wrong and then I've gone to bed feeling like the

Nicki 34:42

Yeah of course. Yeah. Find me a mom who's not been there

Chatwithcharlie 34:45

But then you're there with a a teenager who has said Mom can you bail me out of this I'm in trouble And you're like No you're a

Nicki 34:52

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 34:53

now You need to own up and deal with it And that mom guilt is the same whatever

Nicki 34:57

Of course it is.

Chatwithcharlie 34:58

that you're

Nicki 34:59

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 34:59

And it's putting That's why I say about putting it on trial and I feel like it's a method that you've used

Nicki 35:04

All the time. Yeah,

Chatwithcharlie 35:06

Is just is it what I value in my parenting journey or is it just noise is this just noise Is this

Nicki 35:14

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 35:15

is valuable a lot of the time mom guilt is just noise It's something that you've heard somewhere else And

Nicki 35:21

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 35:21

speaking about once before is whether you let your children watch TV after school for example You might feel like a really bad mom cause you let them have that little bit of extra time because you needed five minutes peace after the school run and while you're sorting dinner out and you let them watch TV a bit longer and you feel so guilty because they're having more screen time than what want But then you have to ask yourself that actually something that really matters to you or is that because other moms

Nicki 35:46

Mmhmm

Chatwithcharlie 35:47

say that they don't allow

Nicki 35:48

and, and that's a biggie on social media as well. It's so much about screen time and also, you know, it's thinking ahead about social media ban and all of that. And I think you're right. I think people sometimes become afraid to make the decision that is best for them as the parent and for their children, because it's like, "Oh, what would so and so say about that?" Or, "Oh, I read an article that said that you shouldn't be like that." Actually, I've, I've always been fairly free with screen time. I'm not restrictive with that. And what I have found over the years is that they, they do it themselves. Do you know what I mean by that? Like, they just kind of get-- They're not going to sit there for 24 hours a day on a screen, right? Also, mine are all boys, so they like to be out and active. But, you know, u-u-until they g- have ever... If they've ever given me a reason, and look, there are, there are reasons people talk about, you know, it makes them angry or it makes them anxious or whatever. Of course, you have to do... I, my, my whole parenting thing really is like you do you. All right? If you choose to parent in an entirely different way to me, that does not make me right and you wrong or vice versa. You have got to do, like you said, you know what is right for your kids, and you know if the screen time feels a bit much and actually they need a bit of fresh air or it's actually making them annoyed because Roblox or whatever is, you know, driving them mad. You have to make that decision. You know, the last thing I ever do is tell parents what is right or wrong. But what I do really want parents to do is feel brave enough to, to make the decision for themselves. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. The moms in the playground, the mom influencers on social media, you know, don't worry about that because they have totally different circumstances to you. So if you want your kids to watch TV, you know... And, and one of the other things I often think about with the mom guilt is I often... Another kind of thing, like putting it on trial, a similar thing is about will this matter tomorrow, next week, in a year, in five years? Will it matter Then? You know, is it something so life shatteringly earth changing? 99.9% of the time it isn't. And also, let's remember, kids have very short memories. Like, so you're beating yourself up for three days about something that happened because you shouted. They've forgotten about it within 10 minutes because they've gone, got themselves a snack, watched a bit of TV or played a game. It's over. So you're beating yourself up about something that they don't even care about anymore. I think we've got to really separate what is, you know, really need to repair this, this is g- this is gonna matter, and actually what is just human behavior.

Chatwithcharlie 38:29

Yeah I I think that goes firstly with every emotion that a mom is feeling the mental load the mom guilt the separation anxiety we feel it times 100

Nicki 38:40

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 38:40

our children

Nicki 38:41

We do

Chatwithcharlie 38:42

And so that's something to really

Nicki 38:44

Really remember

Chatwithcharlie 38:45

remember Yeah remember that y whatever you're feeling it's literally times 100 Your child you've dropped them off at nursery and you're feeling like you've just left them and abandoned them they're having the time of their life

Nicki 38:57

Cool style

Chatwithcharlie 38:58

guilty and you're lying in bed going over and over how you spoke to your child and you wish you hadn't have spoken that way

Nicki 39:03

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 39:03

they are sleeping soundly They are fine

Nicki 39:05

course they are. And by the time they wake up in the morning, all they want is a cuddle from mommy or daddy or whatever, you know And so it's not... You know, we can't help it, it's such a normal human emotion, but it, it's not worth it. Guilt is such a wasted emotion. We, it, it's, you know, we spend so much time feeling that, and it doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't help us, it doesn't help our children, you know, so we need to just find a way to acknowledge it. I, you know, like with all emotions, we're not ignoring it. Acknowledge that emotion, acknowledge why we're feeling it, and like you say, put it on trial or think about whether it's gonna matter in the future and be able to then, you know, move past it because it's, it's not, you know, we only live once, and there is not enough time in the world for all of that guilt

Chatwithcharlie 39:51

No and something that you touched on just before as well is about which I think is really important is about repairing

Nicki 39:57

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 39:58

There is room This is what motherhood is all about This is part of the mental load of how much we carry You are supposed to repair

Nicki 40:07

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 40:07

if something happens you are supposed to hug it out

Nicki 40:11

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 40:11

say you're sorry

Nicki 40:12

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 40:13

Doing that as well emotionally being emotionally vulnerable as a parent to your child and say Listen Mommy she didn't mean to shout I was just I was it was a hard day It was

Nicki 40:22

Yeah. Thank you

Chatwithcharlie 40:23

I shouldn't have shouted the way I did I'm sorry

Nicki 40:25

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 40:26

And that's repairing

Nicki 40:27

It really is. And that apologizing, showing them that adults, not just parents, but adults make mistakes, and adults say sorry when they've done something wrong, hugely, hugely influential for, for kids to understand that. Because I think, you know, when you're really little, you believe that your parents are perfect and infallible, and they never do anything wrong or make any mistakes. But actually, as your kids get older, particularly once they're kind of secondary school teenage years, you know, they, they do see that, and we can't pretend that we don't. And actually us owning it, like I said before, is really helpful for them to own it as well

Chatwithcharlie 41:06

Absolutely and just going on all of this the guilt and the mental load especially I feel has got a lot to do with how we beat ourselves up about time

Nicki 41:19

Yes

Chatwithcharlie 41:20

always chasing our tail We're always saying that we don't have time we don't have enough time there isn't the time And I think you tell me Nikki because you're the professional here but I really think that time is such a huge part of the mental load Managing time having a look at where your time actually goes

Nicki 41:40

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 41:40

many people say to me so many moms that I have spoken to say I don't have time I

Nicki 41:45

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 41:45

time for me I don't have time for this I don't have time for my laundry It's coming out of my ears What what advice do you give to your clients about of managing the mental load time

Nicki 41:59

I think there's a couple of things. Firstly, it's about prioritizing. You know, the truth is we all have the same 24 hours in the day, and we get to choose what we do with them, you know? And people have different priorities, and that's absolutely fine. The first thing I say to people, I say this to teenagers and adults, you know, when I talk to teenagers about, you know, "Do, what, what do you do in your free time? Do you do any clubs? Do you do any sports? Do you do things that make you happy?" And they go, "I don't really have time." And I say, out of interest I say, "Pick up your phone and tell me what your screen time was in the last week." You know, you get... I don't know if you get, I get the notification every Monday. You know, spend

Chatwithcharlie 42:38

yeah

Nicki 42:39

more hours than I would care to share with you on your phone. And you know, some of them, it's wild. Six hours a day, seven hours a day. I think the most I heard was 10 something hours a day, you know And I go, "And now tell me again that you don't have time to go and do a class or go and do something." Now, I'm not saying that moms necessarily have 10 hours a day, but I'm saying we have to prioritize the things that we want to do because there is time. And listen, the time changes, right? I have a lot more time now. My youngest is 13, my oldest is 19. They are much more self-sufficient. We are a bit redundant actually at the weekends. My oldest now drives, so he does a lot of the driving his brothers around. Quite often my husband and I will look at each other over a weekend and go, "Oh so what, what are we doing this weekend?" So I am the first one to say like, "Of course, I have more time, for example, than you do. You've got five kids and they're all much younger, so you don't have that luxury." But you will one day. I'm sure you probably can't imagine it now, but you will. You will have that time. So I think it's about, you know, when you do have time, and I'm really not... I know that people with young children, like it's much harder. But that time when they are having a nap or when they're going to bed or when grandma wants to pop in or take them out, you know, you've got to just make that time. Even if it's just 20 minutes a day, we're not talking about, you know, hours and hours at the spa, although that would be nice. You know, just finding that bit of time and doing, you know, get out for a walk or just sit down and close your eyes and put your favorite TV show on because I know it's a bit of a cheesy thing, but we cannot pour from an empty cup. We have to... Like I think there's a lot of- I, I hesitate to say it a little bit, but there's, there's sometimes a little bit of martyrdom around parenthood, and it's like, "But I can't because I'm the mom and I can't..." You know what? Sometimes you can't, but also use the people around you if you ha- if you are lucky enough to have them, be it just your partner, a, a parent, a friend, an auntie, whoever it is. Someone says, "Let me take the, the baby or the toddler for a couple of hours." I think we're like, "Oh, no, no, no, you know, no, I, I'm the mom. It's my job." Why? Because that couple of hours could revitalize you completely. I think it's really important. You know, it's also really important to make time for the basics. You know, before you get to that burnout stage, are you eating properly? Are you sleeping? You know, and I know, again, I really wanna stress, I'm not taking away from how hard it is at the beginning. It's really easy for me as a mom of teenagers to say, "Are you eating? Are you sleeping?" You know. But, but where you can. I'm not talking about un- uninterrupted 12 hours of sleep a night, because it's not realistic. But, you know, just are you getting the sleep where you can? I- are you going... you know, people talk about, "Oh, sleep when the baby sleeps." I don't know about that. I never did it myself. But actually, if the kids are in bed but you're choosing to spend two more hours doom scrolling on Instagram, you know, then, then that isn't gonna help you. You've got to just use your time wisely and, and take the help that you can get. The whole adage of it takes a village is not rubbish. Now, I know that not everyone is lucky enough to have a village, but maybe that village is just one or two other people. You know, use it to help you, because that is going to help you then be the best mom that you can be, and that is then going to help you feel less mom guilt. So it all just kind of feeds into each other

Chatwithcharlie 46:14

that, that is actually something that time is so important because it's the thing that I hear the most is that I don't have time. And time is something that I do teach in Back to Me. I do a time audit where I actually have the person going through it put down everything they do in a day, like on a standard day, just to try and find those pockets of time. And like you say, 20 minutes.

Nicki 46:38

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 46:38

the mom that doesn't have much time

Nicki 46:40

Sure

Chatwithcharlie 46:40

have children under 12, five children under the age of 12. And found time if I got up half an hour earlier than my kids in the morning to have some time for myself, and I choose to do a workout in the morning. You could choose to journal, to

Nicki 46:58

Yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 46:59

just have a coffee in

Nicki 47:00

Absolutely. Yep

Chatwithcharlie 47:01

These little bits of time, if you're on the school run, sitting in the car for five minutes before you get out and go and pick the kids up, just to take a minute

Nicki 47:09

Yeah. And put your favorite so- or yeah, be silent or put your favorite song on in the car and have a little dance

Chatwithcharlie 47:15

just

Nicki 47:15

Look, ultimately, we want to be the happiest and best versions of ourselves that we can be, right? Happy parents are better parents. Happy women are better moms. Happy men are better dads. It's not rocket science. And, and again, like we're not talking about take yourself off for a week to the spa. We're just talking about those little moments where you can, because even if you're just... even if your screen time is one hour a day, that's seven hours a week,

Chatwithcharlie 47:45

嗯。

Nicki 47:45

right? Two hours a day, 14 hours a week. You can do a lot in 7 or 14 hours. And again, you don't have to go out and do anything spectacular. You know, sit in silence and have a cup of coffee. Watch a- your favorite Netflix show, whatever it is, that is just gonna fill up your cup a little bit. We're not talking about we don't have to pour everything in and it's overflowing. We just want to make sure it's not absolutely empty, and just keep topping it up all the time. Notice when it's low and just keep put- feeding bits in here and there. A quick walk, a quick podcast, a quick whatever. Fill it up a

Chatwithcharlie 48:22

Yeah.

Nicki 48:22

little bit at a time

Chatwithcharlie 48:23

Because if it's empty, your cup, you think that you're giving everything to your family, and that's why your cup is

Nicki 48:29

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 48:30

But if your cup is empty, you are actually giving the worst version of yourself to your family. You're more snappy. You don't have enough patience. You're tired. You're not eating properly, like

Nicki 48:41

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 48:42

You- you've got to fill your cup up and maintain your mental load so that you can be the best version of yourself

Nicki 48:52

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 48:52

your family. So just to to a conclusion

Nicki 48:55

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 48:55

in this episode what would be the main takeaways that you would give to help somebody listening to this manage their mental load? If they are feeling completely overwhelmed right now,

Nicki 49:06

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 49:07

where can they start by managing their mental

Nicki 49:11

So I think, you know, as I, as I touched on, firstly, I would say back to basics: eating, sleeping, fresh air, you know, chatting to a friend. It, it amazes me when I ask a lot of parents, you know, "What do you do to bring you joy?" And they say my kids bring me joy." Okay,

Chatwithcharlie 49:30

Hmm

Nicki 49:30

fine. On the whole, most of our kids bring us joy. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about anything. D- do you go for a walk with a friend? Do you do a dance class? Do you make time to watch whatever you wanna watch? Find something that brings you joy that isn't your children to connect with. I think that's super important because like we've, we've touched on, there is time. There might not be lots. We are not time rich as parents, particularly parents of younger kids, but we can find a little bit of time. I also wanna say, you know, I really wanna encourage people to reach out for support. As I said, there is no prize for doing this on your own, right? So whether that support is friends or family, whether that support is coming to you and downloading your stuff and actually, you know, l- listening to you and reading all the stuff and doing your courses, you know, that is going to help them. Struggling under the mental load is absolutely real, but people, what people need to kind of get better at is not struggling in silence, because there's no... We- we're not heroes for doing it on our own. Actually, I think the very opposite. You're a hero when you reach out and say, "I cannot do this. I am overwhelmed. I need you to help me." That is what being the best version of motherhood is, because you are recognizing that in order for your kids to get everything they need, and for you to get everything they need, you need other people. And I'm really aware that not everyone has a lot of other people, but I think people can find that one person, even if it's someone that you just met at a baby group, you know, that's just gonna... you're gonna make an arrangement with to feel less alone. Or whether you're lucky enough to have a big family or big friend, you know, big group of friends that can help you. People maybe who even have more experience than you as well, who can talk you through some of those difficult times. You know, I think ultimately we have to change the narrative that struggling under the mental load is trendy and cool, because it's not.

Chatwithcharlie 51:30

absolutely.

Nicki 51:31

The mental load is there, but it's become something used, I think, a lot by kind of influencers and whatever. It's not cool to struggle on your own. It's not good. It's not healthy for you or for anyone in your family. So I think we have to normalize speaking out. We have to normalize speaking out before we get to burnout level. And, and also just remembering that where you are now is not where you're gonna be forever. You know you, you, you made me laugh before when you said, you know, when they've tipped the potty over their head. I remember it well, and mine used to put their underpants on their head and run around. And you do in those moments, you're like, "I'm never gonna survive this. Like, I c- I can't do it." And actually, you know the good news is it doesn't stay like that forever. Different challenges, don't get me wrong. It's not plain sailing now either,

Chatwithcharlie 52:19

next,

Nicki 52:20

you know?

Chatwithcharlie 52:20

the next

Nicki 52:21

There's always the next phase, but I can assure you none of mine are now running around tipping potties over their head. But I think also it's, look, it's so... it goes so quickly, which is such an old person thing to say, but it does all go so quickly, and you kind of blink and they're adults or nearly adults, and you wonder what on earth happened in between them tipping the potty over their head and, you know, driving. So I think we've got to just sometimes take a step back as well and just say, "What can we do to make this easier?" But also, what can I do to just make the best of it? Because I think we're all gonna miss it when it's gone, all these difficult moments. We are gonna miss it when it's gone. But, but reach out for help, that's the, that's really super important. Don't do it on your own.

Chatwithcharlie 53:03

Yeah. And, I do know that there is a person listening to this that, that really doesn't have many people, but like you say, one person, and that really from the bottom of my heart is why I created

Nicki 53:16

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 53:16

to Me. It's not a thing that you fly through. It's something where I am 100% there

Nicki 53:23

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 53:23

you to help you figure this mental load out, and that's what I'm there for. That's what people like Nikki is there for, like helping people. You're not on your own.

Nicki 53:35

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 53:36

really, don't have to do this mom thing on your own. It's so important that you don't actually,

Nicki 53:42

Yeah

Chatwithcharlie 53:43

which is, which is just repeating what Nikki said. but the mental load, it's real,

Nicki 53:49

It really is

Chatwithcharlie 53:50

I hope that between me and Nikki, we've helped you understand normal that sometimes it is hard, sometimes it gets a bit much.

Nicki 53:59

Yep

Chatwithcharlie 54:00

But you should never ever be dealing with this by yourself, that there is support out there, there are people, and it's okay to say that it's hard and that,

Nicki 54:11

yeah.

Chatwithcharlie 54:11

great, tomorrow will be

Nicki 54:12

And actually, the more people start talking about the fact that it's hard, the better it will be, because then those people who have been too scared to say that will feel more able to kind of almost put themselves forward and go, "Oh, okay. Well, yeah, no, I find it hard, too." So people have got to be brave and take those steps and own how hard it can be and, and then there will be this entire movement of people saying, "Yeah, it's really hard." And I think we are getting there. I think it's becoming more talked about, but there's a long way to go.

Chatwithcharlie 54:45

Nicky, I can't thank you enough for coming on and helping us understand the mental load and sharing all your expertise with us. I'm so grateful to have had you

Nicki 54:55

My absolute pleasure, and I, I hope that lots of people listen and lots of people are taking your courses and, you know, getting all the support that you can offer because the stuff that you're doing is just absolutely amazing, and I wish it had been around when my kids were little too

Chatwithcharlie 55:11

Thank you so much.

Nicki 55:12

Thank you for having me

Chatwithcharlie 55:13

it's such a pleasure. And if you're the person listening needs the help, or if you know a friend that is struggling with the mental load right now and could do with listening to this episode, please share it with them. Like Nikki said, we want people to be talking about this more and more so that we can help people understand that having all those tabs open in your head is very normal, and it's not easy, but with a little support from each other, can do this mom thing together. Thank you so much for being here today and for giving me your time. As ever, I will see you in the next one. Take care